Game of Thrones fans, meet your man on the inside. Bryan Cogmans as diehard a devotee of A Song of Ice and Fire, the sprawling series of epic fantasy novels by George R.R. Martin upon which HBOs cultural phenomenon is based, as anyone out there watching. A screenwriter for the show he penned this seasons fifth episode, and was responsible for last seasons early standout What Is Dead May Never Die Cogman also serves as Executive Story Editor, taking point with showrunners and primary writers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss on translating the massive books into manageable ten-episode seasons. Hes known to the fandom as the productions liaison between the source material and what goes onscreen, able to call to mind minutiae at a moments notice. And as Benioff and Weiss took on the additional responsibility of directing this seasons third episode, Cogman often found himself the sole writer on set.
All of this makes him the ideal man to talk to about Game of Thrones absolutely pivotal third season. At this stage of the Game, the books get too long to fit into a single season season three will adapt about half of A Storm of Swords, the third novel. Meanwhile, the cast, the locations, and the stunning plot twists accumulate at an even more daunting rate. Its one of the most challenging acts of adaptation a TV show has ever faced but to hear Cogman tell it, the attitude on set is basically Bring it on.
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A Stormof Swords, the third book in the series and the basis for this third season, is frequently cited as the fan favorite. Your bosses have referred to this season as the reason they wanted to make the show in the first place. Whats your main concern in helping to adapt material thats generated such an intense reaction?
Well, you always want to honor those key sequences and moments from the books, but at the same time they have to mesh with the world of the show and [Benioff and Weisss] interpretation of Westeros. Yeah,SoSis definitely the book weve all been working towards, so Season Three, and the upcoming Season Four, are going to be very special. More than once I found myself on set watching a scene play out and realize Id been envisioning this scene in my head for years. I got lucky in that I was assigned an episode with several such fan-favorite scenes. Hopefully, book fans will like it, but you cant please everyone.
One thing I love about this season, and the third book, is it pays off and builds on plotlines and character arcs that go all the way back to the very first episodes of the series. Another reason I think the third book connects with readers, and with us, is that it contains lot of game-changing moments no reference to the shows title intended. George really tears into the characters inner lives in an arguably deeper way than the previous volumes did.
Oh, totally. I literally lost sleep one night after reading something in this volume. Which reminds me: Book fans are one thing, but the show obviously has a huge fanbase that hasnt read the books at all. Seems like theres a shitstorm in the future from them, no?
A shitstorm of fun!
[Laughs] So far, the basic battle plan for the show has been one season = one book. This year, for the first time, youll be stopping well short of the conclusion of the volume in question. Why?
Well,A Storm of Swordsis a massive volume, and it seemed like it would be shortchanging it to try to cram it into ten episodes. There are some huge scenes in that book, and Im not just talking about action or VFX heavy stuff, though theres plenty of that. There are tons of emotionally charged, game-changing character moments, all of which have huge ramifications going forward. I think it was felt that if we piled too many of those moments on top of each other, they would lose some of their impact.
And it should be noted: Were taking the approach, from now on, that this TV series is one big adaptation ofA Song of Ice and Fire,so elements from any of the books could show up in any given season, if thats what is required. That said, essentially, Season Three is about half ofA Storm of Swords.
It seems like any cut-off point you pick before the end of the novel would provide natural climaxes for some characters, but the storylines for some other ones would be left hanging a bit . . .
The key when approaching each season is figuring out the arcs for each major character. So, as you say, just cutting Book Three in half wouldnt do it. We had to figure out a journey for each character that made sense for the season. Its a challenge as some characters have significantly less chapters than others. Tyrion, for example, has something like 12 chapters inSoS, whereas Bran Stark has, I think, four? Someone will have to doublecheck those numbers for me.
Close! Tyrion had 11. Dead-on for Bran, though.
Doh! Anyway, if you take Dany as an example if Season One was about her ascension from frightened girl to mother of dragons and Season Two was basically about her screwing up a lot and learning from her mistakes, what is her arc in Season Three? Once we answered that question we figured out which chapters or sections ofSoS (or other books)would best service that. And we did this with all our core characters.
Thats the second time youve mentioned drafting material from other books into this season, and now Im pretty intrigued. Are you talking about doing stuff out of order, or is it more a matter of taking individual characters farther along their storylines than others, in order to even things out or round out a story arc?
Well, Ill let you see for yourself. But this isnt all that different from what weve done previously. There was material from Book Two and Book Three in Season One, Book Three in Season Two, and there are whole characters weve saved for Season Three the Reeds, the Tullys that appear in the first two books. The big difference now is were not treating it as one book = one season.
The big cable dramas tend to have a pattern in terms of when, in the season, the big stuff happens. How do you fulfill or subvert the expectations weve been trained to have by everything from The Sopranos on down and still pack the wallop the books big surprises pack?
Thats an interesting question. Not sure I have an interesting answer! I dont really think about that kind of thing when Im in the writers room or working on my individual episodes. I just concentrate on what feels right for the characters and the story D and D are trying to tell. David and Dan, as showrunners, may very well think about that kind of thing, but youd have to ask them.
Since were talking about other dramas, are there any current or former series that influence you in terms of how you approach this material?
I wouldnt say a lot of time is spent consciously using other series as templates. Subconciously, well, I suppose The Wire, in that in my opinion its the greatest TV show of all time and it dealt with its own complex mythology, dozens of characters, very specific worlds, and intricate plots. References to Deadwood come up in the writers room from time to time.
Readers kept the big surprises from the first two seasons pretty tightly under wraps. Do you think that will change this season, given how many more readers and viewers there are now?
I think the book fans have been admirable in keeping such spoilers under wraps. I was delighted when a certain characters untimely death in Episode 109 ended up being such a shock to so many viewers. Look, I think book fans want the new viewers to enjoy this story the same way they first did. Of course you get a few trolls who try to spoil the party for everyone, but for the most part, theyve been great about spoilers.
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Actually, whats your opinion on spoilers in general? Its a hotly debated topic among TV critics, given how often we reference Show X in a review of Show Y.
Well, I feel like if you are coming to this story for the first time via our TV show then I wouldnt want it spoiled for you. I hate when the major event of a show I watch is spoiled for me. And Im wracked with guilt when/if I spoil something for someone else. The other night, like an idiot, I referenced the death of a major character on Downton Abbey assuming my friends present had seen it. They hadnt. That was unforgivable. Hopefully theyll speak to me again.
It happens to the best of us, man.
Wracked with guilt. I asked them to spoil something for me, like Breaking Bad, which Im not fully caught up on, but they took the high road.
Back to the story the canvas begins expanding rather rapidly in this volume, and the cast and setting only gets more sprawling from here. Whats your number-one trick for getting new people and places to become sticky in the minds of viewers?
I dont know if theres a number one trick. It helps that we cast great, memorable actors who can do a lot with their limited screentime someone with the presence of, say, Stephen Dillane. Stannis is a major character, but has comparatively little screentime, or book time, than the others, so you need someone who can really draw you in as a viewer. Same with Liam Cunningham, Diana Rigg this season . . .
I totally know what you mean about the difference actors make. Prose has its own advantages, but theres something about seeing a character embodied by a flesh-and-blood human being that, somewhat literally, brings them to life. Sansa is a character who only clicked for me after watching Sophie Turner play her. Bronn too, thanks to Jerome Flynn.
Yeah, and both of those characters are examples of us writing to the particular strengths of our actors. As the series goes on, youre writingJeromesBronn, not just Bronn. The same goes for Lena [Headey]s Cersei, Alfie [Allen]s Theon, Rory [McCann]s Hound, Stephens Stannis, and so on. With Sansa, aside from the fact that Sophies amazing, I think that character might have clicked differently for you because we aged her up. Shes 11 in the books, and making her 13-14 spun the character in a slightly different direction, I think.
Also, it was a goal from day one of the first season make the various worlds as specific and memorable as possible, so the viewer knows exactly where he or she is within a few seconds. So hats off to Gemma Jackson and her production design team, Michele Clapton and her costumes, Steve Kullback and his VFX wizards, and of course our directors and cinematographers.
On the flipside, what do you do to keep absent characters and settings fresh in peoples minds?
Well, thats a trick. Were still figuring that out. One way is that we keep characters in play whereas in the book they might disappear or have less to do. Littlefinger and Varys come to mind. And we pepper in references here and there into dialogue, but we have to very judicious about when to do that. Too much of that kind of thing kills the drama. Well often have a lot more of that stuff in scenes and it ends up getting cut out.
I know that one of the things a lot of people said they loved about Blackwater from last season is that it didnt cut away from the characters in Kings Landing or Stanniss army once. The episode benefitted greatly from that tight focus. Are you taking that into consideration this season?
Yeah, its certainly one of our strongest episodes, but you gotta remember the book does the same thing. A Clash of Kings takes a break from all the other characters and jumps back and forth between Tyrion, Davos, and Sansa until the battle is done. Its the only time that really happens, I think. So, if the story dictates it, well do it. Youll see some episodes in Season Three where we leave certain worlds for that week and focus on just a few.
Its a question were always grappling with. Do we visit every single character in, say, the season premiere, or do we leave a few for next week? There are pros and cons to both options. You dont want to leave characters for too long and screw up that storylines momentum, but you also dont want to be constantly jumping all over the place and overwhelming the viewer.
The shows invented individual scenes and even entire storylines in the past. In my experience of the fandom, the scenes tend to go over better than the storylines. Does that square with what youve observed?
Youre asking why I think some fans didnt like our storylines? Um . . . I dont know. Ilike them. I assume youre speaking of book fandom since people who havent read the books dont know whats invented or whats not.
Yeah, I meant the book readers.
In that case, I assume they didnt go over well because those book fans preferred the book version. Thats ok if they did. Like I said, cant please everybody.
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My theory is that individual scenes come across like deleted scenes from the novels like a conversation King Robert and Cersei might have had, but we never got to see since neither of them was a main character at that point in the series. But the larger the invention gets, the more proprietary the readers start to feel about the version they knew and loved from the books.
Perhaps. Hey, you never know, its all subjective. You mention that Cersei/Robert scene. I think its one of the best scenes in our series and it was kind of a turning point for David and Dan in terms of adhering to book canon. It was written later in the season, after wed pretty much completed the episode its in 105, The Wolf and the Lion. I think its safe to say some book purists might not like that scene because its unlikely book Robert and book Cersei would ever have that conversation, in which they discuss the current political climate and reflect on their marriage. But show Robert and show Cersei would have that conversation. I think it was really freeing. Some book purists may not have cared for it, but forthe show to work and for those two characters to really make an impact in Season One, that scene ended up being essential. I think Mark and Lena would tell you it was one of their favorite pieces of material too. But, you know, different strokes.
From here on out, I feel like the trajectory of the adaptation process gets trickier and trickier. As the books get longer and longer, the amount of splitting, splicing, reshuffling, cutting, and adding will increase, with all the peril and potential that entails. Sound about right?
Yeah, thats right. As I said before, this show is now officially one big adaptation of all the books. The book a season rule doesnt apply anymore. Its tremendously challenging, but its a really fun puzzle to work out. Ive said this before: George has given us a fantastic set of toys to play with. David, Dan and I just met with him over a few days at his home in Santa Fe, and it was so exhilarating to hear him talk about the mythology of Westeros and whats in store for the characters. Its going to be a hell of a lot of fun moving forward.
He didnt happen to mention a release date for the next book in the series, did he?
Ha! No.
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